Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with podcaster, author, and icon carver Jonathan Pageau. They discuss Jonathan’s new book release, “Jack and the Fallen Giants,” the depth of fairy tales when they are not propagandized, Jordan’s recent conversation with Richard Dawkins, the hierarchies of being and their relation to goals, and how the spirit of Adam is the best combatant against the spirit of Cain.
Jonathan Pageau is a French-Canadian liturgical artist and icon carver, known for his work featured in museums across the world. He carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images and teaches an online carving class. He also runs a YouTube channel dedicated to the exploration of symbolism across history and religion.
This episode was recorded on October 30th, 2024
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(0:00) Coming up
(0:28) Intro
(2:45) Fairy tales with a modern – not postmodern – twist
(5:03) Writing better stories for both children and adults
(6:44) Writing stories without propaganda, highlighting what is deeply and timelessly relevant
(11:46) “I made a mistake with that with Dawkins,” ancient patterns in symbolism and convergence
(16:56) Large language models are networks of probabilities, levels of cognition
(19:14) Comparative storytelling: historical truth and spontaneous creation
(21:12) Memes: trivial examples of parasitism, universal symbolism in biology
(26:39) Hierarchies of being and the influence of narratives on the social landscape
(31:00) The reality of dragons, uniting metas
(35:43) How Moses got us to the moon – more than the science
(40:07) Jacob’s ladder: when you move into the ineffable…
(48:06) The true hero myth is implicit in the structure of being itself – you can embody it
(53:20) Job’s decision to choose faith despite suffering is profoundly important
(57:00) Pride, truth claims, and affordances
(1:05:50) The capacity of death as a mechanism for repair
(1:10:04) Effortful toil – the spirit of Adam vs. the spirit of Cain
(1:15:16) Why not drink? Moral transformation and replacing the kick from drugs
(1:17:36) Abraham and Isaac: the reality of war and human sacrifice
(1:29:30) What binds us together on the deepest levels
(1:38:03) The Alliance for Responsible Citizenship, “getting the story right”
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